Boss cheesing in campaign.

In general, I'm of the opinion that the campaign does not need to be made harder, or longer to complete.

However, I think currently there is a loop hole where dying in boss fights can be beneficial during the campaign, in particular for refreshing mana flasks.

The changes that have been made to help eliminate backtracking throughout the campaign have been good. In some cases, it is quicker to die on a boss than push through or portal to town, for replenishing mana, and possible other benefits, which should never be the case.

An example which seems about right to me is Brutus, where you have to walk back through the boss arena, but do not have to traverse a map full of enemies to get back to the fight. Merville on the other hand, you are instantly at the entrance to the arena, and get benefits from these refreshes when dying.

It is an improvement from before, having to travel through the caves to get back to the fight, but there is now no penalty, and a potential benefit from dying in the fight.

Obviously boss layouts are all different, so this is case by case, but I think it is not quite right to have this mechanic as it currently is. I'm not sure what the answer is. I know there are various things that have been applied in ruthless. They are too extreme for the standard campaign, but there should be no benefit, and likely a small penalty of some sort for dying in these fights. Nothing that makes the encounters more laborious, but it should be a benefit to not dying, and having a build that doesn't run into problems where dying is the quickest way to complete the encounter from that point of encountering resistance.

What?

I think this is sort of a self-correcting problem, where anyone new enough to the game to have problems with flasks/mana/etc during the campaign bosses is too new to "optimize" their failure by allowing the boss to kill them.

Total nonissue, optimized play for high-knowledge players is always going to be just beating the boss first try.

Idk man any time i die i have to start over back at the beach.

If you're dying in the campaign in poe1 you're either asleep or incredibly bad at the game.

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Idk man any time i die i have to start over back at the beach.

If you're dying in the campaign in poe1 you're either asleep or incredibly bad at the game.

Most people are not playing HC. It's a strategy that can be used in SC. You may not be aware if this if you are only play HC, but a lot of players completing bosses both in the campaign and maps die multiple times. People die in the campaign all the time. If you look at top speed running content for SC for the campaign, sometimes it will be deathless, but often it will contain deaths, because pushing characters as fast as they can go often means dropping defenses, playing under levelled, etc. Giving a benefit for dying is a bad design in my opinion. It is more relevant than it used to be, because they removed a lot of the respawn penalties to help with making the campaign more player friendly. I agree with them doing that, but it means the bosses are more cheesable in some cases, such as Merviel.

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I think this is sort of a self-correcting problem, where anyone new enough to the game to have problems with flasks/mana/etc during the campaign bosses is too new to "optimize" their failure by allowing the boss to kill them.

Yeah, i'm not talking about beginner players or elite players necessarily. I'm more so talking about intermediate players, which I consider myself a part. If I haven't paid attention to solving mana relative to my DPS by Merviel, Vaal Omnisoul, Dominus, it is possible to run out of flask charges during these fights. In which case, throwing in a death somewhere during the fight becomes somewhat beneficial, or less undesirable, because I get a free flask reset. I don't think that is a great design. In maps and end game bossing, it is less relevant, because of the way the portal system works. In campaign, they are cheesable, which makes the fights less meaningful, because there is very little reward for not dying. You save about 3 seconds on the Merveil fight, which can easily be made up by not worrying about mechanics, if you build is not optimized. If you guys are playing builds that are thought out and don't encounter this, great, but I don't think it should be possible to beat these bosses by doing this. It's just not the best design. The could even make aspect of the campaign easier. I just don't think being able to respawn at the arena is best. I think GGG are aware of it, because they tried some things with ruthless. That might not be a solution for SC, but something like the boss regaining 10% health might be better, if respawns at the door of the arena are possible.

Another example of this, which has been around since before the recent changes, is the Kitava fight. I think the Kitava fight is a good fight. However, there is no real achievement or gravity to this fight, being the pinnacle of the campaign, because if he kills you, you just instantly spawn back in. Conversely, completing lab feels much more satisfying, even though Izaro is relatively similar difficulty, because you can not die during the fight or it is failed. People who play HC should understand this, as it is the reason people enjoy playing HC, when it adds arbitrary penalties to the game. It creates more challenge and weight to gameplay. You need to overcome the challenge of not being able die.

I understand if people don't think this is important. Perhaps as I have been playing SC recently after playing HC and ruthless, it is more noticeable. I know the option of playing HC is there, I just don't think it is a great design for SC. I think it can be improved. There is some relation to logout marcros. It's not the same thing, but it is a similar effect. If you can rely on your logout macro as a defense at any time it cheapens some of the gameplay, and you can play the game in a way that should not really be done because you have a fail safe button. There are reason for having the logout macro available, but it also diminishes HC to an extent when you can exit without penalty if you get stuck.

Again, if you need a logout macro in campaign you're just going to die anyways the build is scuffed.

Most intermediate players are killing bosses in just a few hits in the campaign.

I get the feeling you're talking about poe2 or something then referring to poe1.

I don't think the thing that is bothering you is really an issue. Thats my opinion on it though.

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

Idk man any time i die i have to start over back at the beach.

If you're dying in the campaign in poe1 you're either asleep or incredibly bad at the game.

While OP is cooked, this is one delusional take, sure after years of playing poe campaign it isn't very challenging. However for anyone new and not playing good lvling skill it is quite challenging.

I think maybe the way we should be thinking about this is, are there any circumstances where this would actually be faster than jumping in and out of a town portal? Because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be, literally ever. Maybe on super potato setups, where it takes several seconds to load all of the goblins in act three, but I'm thinking, in a purely abstract sense with a reasonable amount of game performance, jumping through a portal and back again is always going to be significantly faster.

And if that's the case, given that even in ruthless you never have insufficient portal scrolls past the flooded depths, the suggestions completely DoA until they've removed the ability to use portals during bosses.

I guess I just don't see why you want this, OP. Your suggestion does nothing to slow down anyone actually trying to speedrun the game, because beating a boss is faster than not beating a boss. All it does is add some very minor irritation to people who already aren't super competitive in the first place? And probably don't deserve to be gatekept like this for no reason?

I don't know. Like I said, I just don't get the problem this is trying to solve.

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Deathfairy#1490 wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

Idk man any time i die i have to start over back at the beach.

If you're dying in the campaign in poe1 you're either asleep or incredibly bad at the game.

While OP is cooked, this is one delusional take, sure after years of playing poe campaign it isn't very challenging. However for anyone new and not playing good lvling skill it is quite challenging.

The context of this post is about intermediate players and speed runners. Not beginners.

There isnt a beginner out there that is going to be in a fight and know immediately if they run out of mana flasks they should just die and it would be faster. That would take a timer and a lot of trial and error, if it were even true in the first place.

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

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Deathfairy#1490 wrote:

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Lonnie455Rich#2087 wrote:

Idk man any time i die i have to start over back at the beach.

If you're dying in the campaign in poe1 you're either asleep or incredibly bad at the game.

While OP is cooked, this is one delusional take, sure after years of playing poe campaign it isn't very challenging. However for anyone new and not playing good lvling skill it is quite challenging.

The context of this post is about intermediate players and speed runners. Not beginners.

There isnt a beginner out there that is going to be in a fight and know immediately if they run out of mana flasks they should just die and it would be faster. That would take a timer and a lot of trial and error, if it were even true in the first place.

1. Speed runners in softcore? you mean we should care about that one dude?
2. Nothing in the OP specifies it is only relevant to intermediate or speed runners, just because you decided it is does not make it so.

Yeah, i'm not talking about beginner players or elite players necessarily. I'm more so talking about intermediate players, which I consider myself a part.

This is what the op said in his 2nd post. Read a little.

If you look at top speed running content for SC for the campaign, sometimes it will be deathless, but often it will contain deaths, because pushing characters as fast as they can go often means dropping defenses, playing under levelled, etc.

He also said this in the same post.